Showing posts with label barefoot. Show all posts
Showing posts with label barefoot. Show all posts

Saturday, May 19, 2012

Barefoot running efficiency

Not sure that it is all about efficiency....what about injury prevention ..... but you might be interested in this from here.

UPDATE- Someone pointed me to the comments to the Scientific American article and this one from Ken Schafer makes some excellent points, so I hope he doesn't mind me cutting and pasting:

..............I have read the study. This study had nothing to do with cushioned shoes. They took experienced barefoot runners. And compared how much energy they used running barefoot and how much energy they used running in very light weight minimalist running shoes (little to no cushion).

The subjects used slightly more energy when running barefoot. It is important to understand that the subjects maintained the same "barefoot" running technique with and without shoes. So this was not a test of fore-footed running technique vs. heel striking running technique. Most of the evidence to date indicates that the technique used by barefoot runners is more efficient than the heel landing technique that most people (from sedentary shoe wearing populations) use when running.

Second point, barefoot runners have NOT dominated distance running for decades. The person, who wrote this, in the caption above, has no idea what he is talking about. The African runners, who many times have grown up barefoot, and who often run using a fore-footed landing, have dominated distance running for decades, but mostly while wearing shoes. Finally, this was just one study. So it is the results are far from conclusive.

Monday, April 16, 2012

stop old people from falling.....go barefoot?

My work is too busy at the moment for me to do much on this blog, but I am still keeping an eye on news and research.

This study popped up last week and I thought it had some interesting implications.

Altering gait by way of stimulation of the plantar surface of the foot: the immediate effect of wearing textured insoles in older fallers

Conclusions - Stimulating the plantar surface of the foot by way of wearing this type of textured insole causes an immediate effect - in this case a slower, more cautious gait in older fallers. Further work is required to determine how textured insoles can be used to improve gait in older fallers.

The whole study is there for you to look through.

Anyway, what this made me think of was the value of being barefoot.  So much information comes from the feet, from the sole.  While shod, all that information is blunted.  Barefoot there is so much more stimulation and data that can be processed by the brain to feed into the proprioceptive system.

Textured insoles are just a "stepping stone" to being barefoot.  If they can help to prevent falls, maybe being barefoot....on rough rich surfaces...could do even more

Wednesday, February 8, 2012

A bit more barefooting

Marc from Feel Good Eating pointed me towards this one from yesterday's NY Times:

Does Foot Form Explain Running Injuries?


But, says Mr. Daoud, who was himself an oft-injured heel-striker during his cross-country racing days, "if you have experienced injury after injury and you're a heel-striker, it might be worth considering a change." (If you're unsure of your strike pattern, have a friend videotape you from the side as you run, he suggests, then use slow motion to watch how your foot hits the ground.)

If you do decide to reshape your stride, proceed slowly, he cautions. Many people who abruptly switch to barefoot running or a forefoot running form get hurt in the process, he says. The body's tissues adapt to the forces generated by long-term heel striking. Change your form, and the forces will affect different parts of the leg, leading to soreness and, potentially, injury.

Try landing on the ball of your foot "for five minutes at first at the end of a run," Mr. Daoud suggests. Work up to longer periods of forefoot landings as your body adjusts and only if you do not notice significant, continuing soreness.

In his own case, Mr. Daoud now runs consistently with a forefoot landing style, but the transition was not seamless. "I broke a metatarsal while running my first marathon after transitioning a bit too quickly and expecting a bit too much from my body too soon," he says. So fair warning to those considering making the transition to forefoot landings: "Give your body time!"

I think I had mentioned this research before but it is good to see it getting broader readership

Saturday, February 4, 2012

Stability and Mobility for natural running

Excellent stuff from the Natural Running Centre

Lots of good stuff here on posture, gait, mobility and stability



thanks to Jim Hansen for pointing this out

Friday, January 27, 2012

More Barefoot Research....

Thanks to Adam Dean for pointing this out.

Almost a year ago I had a couple of posts (here and here) about a Harvard Professor who was doing research into barefoot running.  The research continues, and Wired Magazine had a feature on his two latest studies which have been published just this month.  Their piece is called More Evidence Supports Barefoot Running and points to Daniel Lieberman's latest work:


If you’re a runner, start striking with your forefoot. And wear those goofy minimalist shoes while you’re at it. Your body will thank you.

Those are the findings of a pair of studies by Daniel Lieberman, a professor of human evolutionary biology at Harvard University. He found runners who use a forefoot strike face a significantly lower risk of repetitive stress injuries, and barely there running shoes produce more efficient movement than conventional kicks.
The two studies are:



Foot Strike and Injury Rates in Endurance Runners: a retrospective study.

PURPOSE:
This retrospective study tests if runners who habitually forefoot strike have different rates of injury than runners who habitually rearfoot strike.
METHODS:
We measured the strike characteristics of middle and long distance runners from a collegiate cross country team and quantified their history of injury, including the incidence and rate of specific injuries, the severity of each injury, and the rate of mild, moderate and severe injuries per mile run.
RESULTS:
Of the 52 runners studied, 36 (59%) primarily used a rearfoot strike and 16 (31%) primarily used a forefoot strike. Approximately 74% of runners experienced a moderate or severe injury each year, but those who habitually rearfoot strike had approximately twice the rate of repetitive stress injuries than individuals who habitually forefoot strike. Traumatic injury rates were not significantly different between the two groups. A generalized linear model showed that strike type, sex, race distance, and average miles per week each correlate significantly (p<0.01) with repetitive injury rates.
CONCLUSIONS:
Competitive cross country runners on a college team incur high injury rates, but runners who habitually rearfoot strike have significantly higher rates of repetitive stress injury than those who mostly forefoot strike. This study does not test the causal bases for this general difference. One hypothesis, which requires further research, is that the absence of a marked impact peak in the ground reaction force during a forefoot strike compared to a rearfoot strike may contribute to lower rates of injuries in habitual forefoot strikers.
(interesting that cross country running seems risky whatever you do!)


Effects of Footwear and Strike Type on Running Economy.

PURPOSE:
This study tests if running economy differs in minimal shoes versus standard running shoes with cushioned, elevated heels and arch supports, and in forefoot versus rearfoot strike gaits.
METHODS:
We measured the cost of transport (mlO2/kg/m) in subjects who habitually run in minimal shoes or barefoot while they were running at 3.0 m/s on a treadmill during forefoot and rearfoot striking while wearing minimal and standard shoes, controlling for shoe mass and stride frequency. Force and kinematic data were collected when shod and barefoot to quantify differences in knee flexion, arch strain, plantarflexor force production, and Achilles tendon-triceps surae strain.
RESULTS:
After controlling for stride frequency and shoe mass, runners were 2.41% more economical in the minimal shoe condition when forefoot striking and 3.32% more economical in the minimal shoe condition when rearfoot striking (p<0.05). In contrast, forefoot and rearfoot striking did not differ significantly in cost for either minimal or standard shoe running. Arch strain was not measured in shoes condition but was significantly greater during forefoot than rearfoot striking when barefoot. Plantarflexor force output was significantly higher in forefoot than rearfoot striking, and in barefoot than shod running. Achilles tendon-triceps surae strain and knee flexion were also lower in barefoot than standard shoe running.
CONCLUSIONS:
Minimally shod runners are modestly but significantly more economical than traditionally shod runners regardless of strike type, after controlling for shoe mass and stride frequency. The likely cause of this difference is more elastic energy storage and release in the lower extremity during minimal shoe running.

Sunday, January 15, 2012

Sort out your flat feet

I thought this was interesting: First Step Toward Treatment for Painful Flat Feet


It reports on a study which looks how flat feet in an adult occur:

Adult-acquired flat foot is most common in women over 40 and often goes undiagnosed. The condition results from the gradual 'stretching out' over time of a tendon near the ankle bone -- the tibialis posterior tendon -- which is the main stabiliser of the foot arch.

The researchers looked at the very structure of this tendon:

Working with surgeons and scientists at Addenbrooke's Hospital, Cambridge and the University of Bristol, the team showed that the structure and composition of tendon specimens had changed and found evidence of increased activity of some proteolytic enzymes. These enzymes can break down the constituents of the tibialis posterior tendon and weaken it -- causing the foot arch to fall.

The study itself is available here.  

What I found interesting though was the way the report skims over something important - the environmental factors......like footwear.  It mentions high heels as a risk, but I wonder if shoes in general also have an impact.  We dive into research into the structure of tendons that collapse.  Perhaps we just need more people barefoot or in simpler shoes. 

Wednesday, December 14, 2011

Running Gait and injury

Here is a study which looked at treating a common running injury - Chronic exertional compartment syndrome (CECS) - by getting runners to modify their running technique, moving to a forefoot strike.   Although there were only 2 in the study it seemed to fix the injury.  The entire paper is here.

Here is the abstract for you.

EFFECTS OF FOREFOOT RUNNING ON CHRONIC EXERTIONAL COMPARTMENT SYNDROME: A CASE SERIES.

INTRODUCTION:
Chronic exertional compartment syndrome (CECS) is a condition that occurs almost exclusively with running whereby exercise increases intramuscular pressure compromising circulation, prohibiting muscular function, and causing pain in the lower leg. Currently, a lack of evidence exists for the effective conservative management of CECS. Altering running mechanics by adopting forefoot running as opposed to heel striking may assist in the treatment of CECS, specifically with anterior compartment symptoms.
CASE DESCRIPTION:
The purpose of this case series is to describe the outcomes for subjects with CECS through a systematic conservative treatment model focused on forefoot running. Subject one was a 21 y/o female with a 4 year history of CECS and subject two was a 21 y/o male, 7 months status-post two-compartment right leg fasciotomy with a return of symptoms and a new onset of symptoms on the contralateral side.
OUTCOME:
Both subjects modified their running technique over a period of six weeks. Kinematic and kinetic analysis revealed increased step rate while step length, impulse, and peak vertical ground reaction forces decreased. In addition, leg intracompartmental pressures decreased from pre-training to post-training. Within 6 weeks of intervention subjects increased their running distance and speed absent of symptoms of CECS. Follow-up questionnaires were completed by the subjects at 7 months following intervention; subject one reported running distances up to 12.87 km pain-free and subject two reported running 6.44 km pain-free consistently 3 times a week.
DISCUSSION:
This case series describes a potentially beneficial conservative management approach to CECS in the form of forefoot running instruction. Further research in this area is warranted to further explore the benefits of adopting a forefoot running technique for CECS as well as other musculoskeletal overuse complaints.


Monday, October 17, 2011

Barefoot training

There is a really interesting interview here on barefoot training:

Ben Dearman Barefoot Training: Running and Strength and Conditioning Interview

Some really good stuff there. 

Flat footed people do tend to benefit the most from going barefoot because they no longer have that medial arch support to prevent their foot from crashing to the ground.  Instead the muscles of the lower leg and foot have to control that motion now.  And a foot that has proper motion, stability and mobility is a foot that is less likely to be injured with sprains.     


(hat tip to Sprint Strong)

Monday, October 3, 2011

Drew has invisible shoes

A few weeks ago I posted my review of a pair of Invisible Shoes.



I just noticed that Drew Baye - interviewed here - is also a fan of the shoes.  His review is here.  I've just returned from a couple of weeks in Spain - hence this blog has been quiet for a bit - and wore them a lot in the heat.

Sunday, August 28, 2011

Barefoot interview

I've mentioned the barefoot running research of Prof Daniel Lieberman before but here is a great interview with him explaining some of his ideas.

While he is known mainly for his ideas on running, given some of the things I've been thinking about recently I thought his bit on sitting was interesting:

Q. People with bad backs often blame evolution for their pain. They say, “My back aches because man was not meant to walk on two feet.” Are they right?

A. If that were true, natural selection would have its toll and we’d be extinct. What is more likely is that many people sit in chairs all day, get no exercise, and thus have weak backs. We did not evolve to sit in chairs all day.

Tuesday, August 16, 2011

Fancy shoes injure you

Here is another one to support the barefoot guys.

An interesting piece on how basketball players who wear shoes with air filled cells building up the heels are more likely to get injured.

Basketball Sneakers, Ankle Sprains and Ankle Pains

Sunday, August 14, 2011

Testing the Invisible Shoes (A Review)

I mentioned the other day that I'd been sent some Invisible Shoes to try.  Here is my review


Barefoot is best

Over the past few years on this blog I've often linked to pieces about the benefits of being barefoot.  Our feet are precisely engineered to support our motion, with an elegant arch to provide a great foundation for whatever we do.  Depending on your personal cosmology they have been designed - by God or evolution - to be the optimal solution, the best things that a biped could stand, walk and run on. 

It is not just the engineering either - our feet are full of receptors that feed information to the brain about our body's position in space giving data for your head to work with to keep you balanced and moving efficiently, an idea developed in Becoming Bulletproof.

Shoes interfere with all of this - they mess up the mechanics clamping the complex structures of the foot into a rigid brace and damp out all of the sensory information that should be flowing to your brain.  They ruin gait and lead to injuries.  Incidentally I'd say this goes double for stiff soled walking boots, but that is another argument.



Minimal shoes

I've been reading about this stuff for years now.  I remember reading Barefoot Ken Bob's site about 10 years ago and also reading Gordon Pirie's (free) book which while not explicitly barefoot promoted a style based on barefoot gait.

It has been interesting watching barefoot go mainstream recently prompted I suppose by Born to Run, but also by the recent scientific studies.  Of course as I've said before on this as on lots of other stuff, Phil Maffetone was way ahead of the crowd promoting barefoot or minimal shoes a long time ago in the Maffetone Method and Fix Your Feet.

Vibram Five Fingers also appeared - although for long enough I couldn't find any in my city.  More and more companies are now producing shoes that they claim are minimal or barefoot.  It has become a market....

Interestingly there is also the trend of writers out there saying that barefoot should mean barefoot, that even minimal shoes blunt the sensory data flowing from the feet.  mc covered this in her recent interviews with Mick Wilkinson.

Invisible Shoes

 Anyway enough of a preamble.  What about me?  Over the last few years I've moved more and more towards more minimal shoes - Chuck Taylors for most things, Inov8's for my hillwalking.  I even got a pair of Vibrams which I've been sprinting in.

Then a few weeks ago I was contacted by Gina from  Invisible  Shoes, offering me a pair of their running sandals to try out.  Never one to turn down a free sample (check out my other blog where I am testing stoves, tents and waterproof jackets!) I happily agreed.

After checking that there was no problem in them supplying to the UK, I had to tell them what I wanted:


  • the 4mm “Connect”  thickness
  • black laces
Then I had to give them the length of my foot so that they could supply the right size.




Within a week they arrived - two soles, two laces and a hair grip for threading the lace.   (The photo is in black and white - my feet looked too scary in colour.)

There area couple of things that you need to do for yourself with these shoes.

Create a toe hole - you need to mark a position on the shoe between your first two toes and make a small hole for the lace.  This really needs a leather punch, which I didn't have so I went to a local tailor and they made me the holes for free using the tool for punching holes in belts.

Lace them - then you need to lace the things.  It looks complex but is pretty simple - toe/ankle inside/ankle outside.  In any case there is a superb little video on the Invisible Shoes site which explains what to do.

I actually enjoyed the constructing of the shoes - it feels like you are really making them yourself.

Trying them out 


So that was it!  I've had them on all day today.  Walking about outside, driving to a country pub for lunch, playing in the garden.

It took a few tries to get a comfortable lacing but I am there now.  Also despite thinking that my gait was pretty good, being in things this minimal - they make the Vibrams feel excessive - really forces you to adopt an efficient gait with less heel strike.  Walking about on hard Edinburgh pavements you cannot let your feet get ahead of you, POSE style walking is needed and I was reverting to the ideas of Lee Saxby in his excellent book - Proprioception.  His key principles are:

•    Your weight should move from heel to big toe, but think of it more as a smooth heel stroke than a jolting heel strike;
•    Keep your strides shorter than normal – this will help keep your body in its optimum alignment for efficient locomotion;
•    Try not to look down; in fact, keep your gaze somewhere above the horizon and ‘lead’ with your chest;
•    Keep your stride relaxed, balanced and symmetrical.


Invisible Shoes in action

OK, this is me in the garden.  The video is only via the iPhone, but it gives an idea of me in the shoes walking and running (and please don't criticise my running gait too much!)



What do I think?

These are true minimal shoes.  If you have become interested in barefoot running or minimal shoes via Born to Run and the Tarahumara, these are as close to their footwear as you will get.  As I said, they make Vibram FiveFingers feel heavy and clumpy!  This is as Zero Drop as possible.

Invisible shoes are fun to make!  The construction of the shoes was part of the enjoyment - getting the hoel right, treading them and playing with the lacing.

Invisible shoes are cheap.  OK I got mine for nothing to review, but a kit for under $30 is great value.  Especially when I recently paid over £80 for my Vibrams.

Highly recommended if you want to get closer to truly being barefoot.


For info, here is their Press Release:


New Minimalist Running Sandal Corrects Stride and Heals Injuries : Invisible Shoes® Provide Healthy Option for Athletic and Casual Barefoot Footwear


Invisible Shoes® provide a true barefoot experience but with a layer of sole protection, allowing for complete natural movement, a lighter stride, foot strengthening and much more. Inspired by Christopher McDougall’s NYT bestseller, Born To Run, Steven Sashen created Invisible Shoes as a high-tech upgrade of the huarache running sandals that the Tarahumara Indians fashion out of used tires. Once he started wearing them, his chronic calf, knee and hamstring injuries quickly disappeared. Sashen then launched www.InvisibleShoe.com in November 2009, began selling Invisible Shoes online, and has since sold over 5,000 pairs in 35 different countries. On July 9th, 2011, Invisible Shoes launched the first and only outsoles specifically designed for barefoot running sandals -- the 4mm thick Connect and 6mm Contact. Both products were co-developed with two former lead designers from Nike and Reebok, and feature the exclusive FeelTrue™ rubber for a great barefoot feel with added style and protection.


Why Barefoot Running?


Empirical and anecdotal evidence shows that barefoot running improves running form, prevents and heals injuries, increases  balance and proprioception, improves posture, strengthens feet and ankles and can develop arches in previously flat feet. Research from Harvard’s Dr. Daniel Lieberman and orthopedic surgeon Dr. Joseph Froncioni shows that when wearing a typical padded motion control running shoe with a raised heel, runners land heel-first and with a relatively straight leg. This heel-strike landing sends a shock wave up to six times the body’s weight through the knees, legs, hips, back, shoulders and neck. Conversely, when running barefoot or in a minimalist shoe, runners land on the ball of the foot with a shorter, lighter, faster, easier stride which is cushioned by the body’s natural shock absorbers – muscles, ligaments and tendons. In short, research suggests running shoes are the very cause of the injuries they are supposed to prevent. With over 85 barefoot or minimalist footwear options on the market from over 20 different companies, minimalist running is being embraced by health and fitness-minded people around the globe. Industry analysts project that minimalist footwear will make up 10 percent of running shoe sales in 2011, $500 million of a $5 billion market.


The Invisible Shoes Story


Now injury-free and with arches in his life-long flat feet, at 49-year-old Invisible Shoes CEO Steven Sashen consistently sprints past runners half his age and has secured a spot as a USA Track & Field Masters All-American sprinter. The constant muscle pulls and tears in his calves and hamstrings, relentless burning pain in his posterior tibialis and throbbing knee pain that plagued him are distant memories.


Amazed that such a simple product could have such a dramatic effect, Sashen muses “I shouldn’t be surprised that mankind’s oldest footwear was the answer for running pain and injury-free.”


Invisible Shoes are perfect for running, walking, hiking, yoga, gym-going, or a casual stroll through town. While the average cost of other “natural movement” footwear is $99.82, built with up to a 12mm heel lift and weights of up to 12 ounces per shoe, Invisible Shoes start at $20, have a "zero drop" (no height difference between the front and rear of the shoe) and weigh in at 3.8 ounces per shoe. Comprised of high-performance, flexible FeelTrue™ rubber sole trimmed to perfectly fit your foot and durable, non-stretch nylon laces, Invisible Shoes let you enjoy a barefoot feel in any environment and on any surface. Customers can also feel good about their purchase because Invisible Shoes are made of partially recycled materials. Invisible Shoes also let you express yourself through your footwear, with colored lace options, numerous tying styles, and dozens of decorative add-ons, a la Crocs’ Jibbitz™.


Invisible Shoes Gives Back to the Tarahumara


To bring its Feel The World™ motto to life, Invisible Shoes donates 10 percent of the profits from its custom-made Invisible Shoes to the Tarahumara Children’s Hospital Fund.









Friday, August 12, 2011

Invisible Shoes!

I have been sent some invisible shoes to try out!!!

Fantastic.  They came in the post this week and over the weekend I am looking forward to setting them up, fitting them and doing some almost barefoot walking.  These are pretty authentic huaraches.


Monday, July 18, 2011

Barefoot means barefoot.

It is interesting how certain ideas surface at the same time.  Last week I receieved a copy of Ken Bob Saxton's book, Barefoot Running Step by Step.  I've followed him a little for years and it was strange to watch the barefoot movement boom recently with vibrams etc.

Anyway, KenBob stresses that it is not enough to have minimal shoes - barefoot means barefoot.  Proprioception - the sense of your body's position in space - is driven by the feet and shoes blunt that sense.

The same idea popped up in the Becoming Bulletproof book that I mentioned last week. 

Then I saw this excellent piece from mc  Mick Wilkinson Part I: Why Barefoot Running (in shoes) Is not barefoot running 

It is an excellent piece and I am looking forward to the rest of the series.

Friday, July 15, 2011

Barefoot Training For Injury Prevention and Performance Enhancement

I have been browsing through the excellent website of the Boston Sports Medicine and Performance Group and there are some good resources there.

 This is a good presentation (pdf) on barefoot training

It is a good overview of the science and research.

Conclusions:

  • Safety First : Evaluate and Educate
  • It’s not for everyone
  • Protect your feet : Minimal Shoes to start
  • Slow and Steady wins the race (10% rule)
  • Get Fit To Run, Don’ t Run To Get Fit
  • Eliminate the high heels
  • Be nice to your kids : wide toe boxes
  • If you’re not injured, don’t change

I've mentioned a lot of this - like Lieberman's research - on this blog before

Tuesday, July 5, 2011

Natural running

This looks like an interesting new site:



Welcome to  the Natural Running Center. Our overall message is simple: Learn, Evolve, Run! With the information, education, and expert advice you will find on this site, it’s our hope and mission that all runners, beginners or veterans, fast or slow, the formerly injured or those hoping to get back in the game, will learn about the health and performance benefits of minimalist, natural, and even barefoot running.  On the educational front, it’s  also our responsibility to be as neutral and impartial as possible with our recommendations and knowledge that we will be sharing. These are exciting times in the footwear, sports medicine, and running world. The Natural Running Center hopes to makes sense of all this “newness,” and provide a safe, injury-free path for runners everywhere.

Sunday, May 29, 2011

Barefoot Running Update–Q&A With Biomechanist Irene Davis, Ph.D.

Runners World have put up an interesting interview with Biomechanist Irene Davis, Ph.D., a leading researcher in the running field for more than 20 years.

She is very much in favour of barefoot running:

Davis is an unabashed promoter of barefoot running and barefoot-like running form.

“I believe there is a compelling body of evidence that suggests we need to consider a paradigm change," she told me yesterday. "But paradigm changes are risky, and younger scientists may be more tentative."

The whole thing is worth reading but I liked this bit:

Why isn't anyone studying barefoot running and landing styles on different surfaces? We've got a lot of hard asphalt out there today.

There have been numerous studies that have looked at how runners react to different surfaces. We now know that runners will change their form in just one or two strides when they hit a hard surface like concrete or a soft surface like sand. They'll adapt a softer landing on concrete, and a stiffer landing on sand. This applies to shoes as well. It has been shown that runners stiffen their knee when landing in cushioned shoes compared to bare feet, even though those shoes reduce impacts when tested in a lab. Things change dramatically when you interface the shoes with a runner who has a complex, well-honed, sensory feedback system.

I'm not an evolutionary biologist, but when I talk to evolutionary biologists,like Dan Lieberman, they tell me that we did evolve to run on hard surfaces, and that  the African savannah was quite hard. It may not be as hard as pavement, but I believe we have an innate ability to adapt to whatever surfaces we come in contact with. So, with reasonable time to adapt, I think we have the potential to run well on hard surfaces. Every stride you take running barefoot on a hard surface will give you a lower loading rate than running with a rearfoot strike in shoes. In addition, you don't want to take away the sensory feedback mechanism, and that's what shoes do.


I bought a pair of Vibrams yesterday - the first time I'd seen them in a shop in Edinburgh.  After a long time, barefoot running and minimal shoes are becoming trendy.   It made me laugh that while I was buying these FiveFingers, there were people in the shop being sold fancy supportive shoes to correct their "pronation".  I challenged the shop assistant.  He was a podiatry student though so his job will be predicated on sellign orthotics.  Telling folk to spend more time barefoot to sort out their problems will not cut it!